Mahapanchak. The Guru comes and says, it is now time that you learn discipline under Mahapanchak, the enemy. But it is possible to do classics by editing them. Every writer writes for his own generation and what he writes cannot pass on to the next generation without comment, without critical comment. Thafs what I tried to say in my article. Dange responded to it, and I answered again. This went on for a long time. MRB'. Apart from these printed discussions, were there any discussions within the IPTA ? I mean, was there any enrichment of one's understanding of the theatre, in internal discussions of this kind ? UD '. But of course. We discussed everything all the time, and even came to blows very often. MRB: Metaphorically ? UD: No, literally also. MB: In an interview that you gave recently to Anustup (a little Bengali magazine) you said that you used to carry a volume of Trotsky with you to the IPTA meetings. And ultimately one day you were told, Thafs enough, you can go now.' Is that how you moved away from the IPTA or did you move away at all ? I wonder if you did. UD: Yes, I was thrown out as a Trotskyite. I didn't move away, I was driven away. Displaying a book of Trotsky was just mischief-mongering. I wouldn't do it now. I was young at the time, and thought this was a nice way to create a sensation, to attract attention. I had to be at the centre of attention. You see I had studied not just Trotsky but also Stalin thoroughly, and I held that one couldn't understand Stalin properly until he had also studied Trotsky thoroughly. To know how great Stalin is, one has to read what Trotsky said and what Stalin had to disprove and refute before he could lead the Soviet Union to victory. That was the great Stalin era at the time, and I had a suspicion that many of the leaders of the IPTA just rattled off Stalin's name and certain titles of his books without having understood him or deeply studied him. MRB: Incidentally, what was the book.... by Trotsky, I mean ? UD: I believe it was The Permanent Revolution or something. MB : Would you say it was this kind of dogmatic stand on the part of the commissars of the IPTA that caused the dissolution of the IPTA at the all-India level ? What is your opinion ? UD : No, I wouldn't. There are no commissars. These commissars are a figment of petty bourgeois imagination. They talk about commissars appointed by the Party who come and dominate; there are no such things. Not in our Party, Journal of Arts and Ideas 27